Staff Sergeant Laughner, U.S. Marine Corps, was called as a witness by the prosecution, was sworn, and testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION

Questions by Major Erickson:

Q. Staff Sergeant Laughner, would you please state your full name and spell your last?

A. Justin [withheld] Laughner, L-A-U-G-H-N-E-R.

Q. And you are currently a staff sergeant in the United States Marine Corps?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you are on active duty?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How long have you been in the Marine Corps?

A. Since 2001. So about six years now, a little over.

Q. And what is your current billet?

A. Current billet, I am currently TAD here and I am with Service Company CLR-17 admin, administration.

Q. And why are you there?

A. I am there because I was called here for this Article 32 to testify.

Q. And some additional Article 32s that may be going on as well?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Are you currently under a grant of immunity?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And in your own words, what do you understand that grant of immunity to mean?

A. Is for full testimony for everything I know of the events that occurred around that day and other events for any wrong doing that I did that I will not prosecuted for it.

IO: Is this testimonial grant of immunity or is this a transaction grant of immunity?

TC[Maj Erickson]: Testimony, sir.

IO: Do you have a copy of that?

TC[Maj Erickson]: I do, sir.

IO: I would like a copy before we finish the investigation.

TC[Maj Erickson]: Aye, aye, sir.

Questions by Major Erickson continued:

Q. Staff Sergeant Laughner, before you came here TAD, what was your billet?

A. My billet, I was an 0211 Counterintelligence Specialist with 2d Intel Battalion.

Q. And what different billets have you held in that MOS?

A. I have not held any other billets besides just being in counterintelligence specialist.

Q. So on 19 November 2005, where were you at?

A. 19 November 2005 I was in Haditha.

Q. In Haditha, Iraq?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And what was your billet in Haditha, Iraq?

A. Direct support as a counterintelligence specialist HET collector for Kilo Company.

Q. You say "HET collector." What is HET?

A. Human Exploitation Team.

Q. And as a Human Exploitation Team person, what was your responsibility?

A. My responsibility, the easiest way to explain it, is to talk to the local civilians through human sources and try to find out what the bad guys are doing, who they are before they can go ahead and do what that want to coalition forces and Iraqi civilians.

Q. And what unit were you attached to again on 19 November 2005?

A. With Kilo Company 3/1.

Q. And that is 3d Battalion, 1st Marines?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where were they geographically located? We know Haditha Iraq, but specifically.

A. Geographically in the city, sir?

Q. Yes.

A. Pretty much right in the middle of the city.

Q. Were they at a firm base?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What was the name of that firm base?

A. Firm Base Sparta.

Q. Were you there the morning of 19 November 2005?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Staff Sergeant Laughner, are you familiar with the term "BOLO"?

A. Yes, sir. To be on the look out.

Q. On 19 November 2005, can you recall -- well, first off, where do BOLOs come from?

A. BOLOs come from the S-2 shop. If they were to get information, not necessary information that I collected in Haditha, maybe from another area, pretty much it is just, while the Marines are on patrol, to be watchful for certain individuals, certain vehicles, certain types of things.

Q. And how often would you get BOLO briefs or updates from the S-2 shop?

A. Fairly regularly.

Q. And would they come to you directly?

A. They wouldn't come to me directly. What I would do is go in there and just talk to the S-2 Marine and I would ask him if he had anything new and that was how I would find out about the BOLOs S-2.

Q. Did you have a responsibility to brief those BOLOs to anybody?

A. If I was going on patrol with any particular squad, I would let them know that there was a new BOLO out, to be on the lookout for this guy or this vehicle.

Q. Were you responsible for briefing the unit that you supported with any sort of BOLOs before going out on patrol?

A. The only thing that I would ever brief on a BOLO is if I find out some information while on patrol and I would come back and brief it to the S-2 and then to the XO or CO.

Q. Okay. Now the morning of 19 November 2005, I want to take you to that point. How did that morning start for you?

A. That morning started out -- I went over to the COC to see what was going on for that day, to see if there were any patrols that I could attach myself to, trying to go out there and find out any information. When I went in the COC --

Q. First off, what time was that when you went in the COC?

A. Around 3730. When I went in there, I had learned that the company had taken one KIA and an IED had gone off in a convoy down around Chestnut.

Q. Okay. What did do you next?

A. And then I asked them if they were going to be sending out any QRF or any other units to go out there. They said, yes, that they were going to be sending out two different units. They were going to be sending out an inner cordon and an outer cordon. I asked which ones had left first and they said that the inner cordon had already left. And the outer cordon was getting ready to leave. I asked the radio operator if he could let that squad leader know if he could hold up a little bit while I grab my terp and my gear, that way I can join them.

Q. Okay. Let me stop you there. First off, just to clear up the record, what is QRF?

A. Quick Reaction Force.

Q. And the terp?

A. Interpreter.

Q. And who was the radio operator? Do you remember?

A. I don't remember who the radio operator was. Everything happened pretty quickly at that time.

Q. So the squad leader of the QRF that you were going to attach yourself to, do you remember who that was?

A. That would be Sergeant Wolf.

Q. Continue. I'm sorry.

A. While I was in the COC they also let me know that there were possible wounded insurgents out there. That was the main reason why I wanted to get on the QRF. So as soon as I found that out I made contact with the squad leader. I went back to where we were billeted at, told my interpreter to grab his gear, that we were going outright now, grabbed our gear and we met up with the squad at the corner of Leopard and Haditha. I let the squad leader know that myself and my interpreter are attached to your squad now. We are here. We're just going to kind of mix in where we normally would be. Then we patrolled south along Leopard until we got past the soccer stadium and then moved east and started continuing south again.

Q. I am going to stop you right there. I'm going to give you an exhibit so we can all orient ourselves. You are talking a lot on roads and direction. For everybody, we are at Investigative Exhibit 69?

TC[Capt Hur]: Do you want me to bring it up, sir?

TC[Maj Erickson]: Please. I am handing the witness what has been marked asInvestigative Exhibit 69.

IO: Major Erickson, I have a requirement to have a transcript done. If you can just make sure your witness slows down a little bit so the court reporter can keep up.

TC[Maj Erickson]: Sir, can you see that clearly on there?

IO: Yes.

TC[Maj Erickson]: Counsel and the IO can follow along on their graph. I just need this so Staff Sergeant Laughner can point to where he is talking about.

IO: All right.

Questions by Major Erickson continued:

Q. Staff Sergeant Laughner, on the image there, can you point out Leopard -- where in the general vicinity is Leopard in Haditha would be, Haditha Road and Leopard?

A. Haditha and Leopard Road, it's a little bit further out on this map, sir. It would be in the top corner right there. It would be up in this corner in this area.

Q. The witness is pointing to the top left-hand corner of the map, off of the face of the map. So those two roads are not reflected on that map?

A. Correct, sir.

Q. And if you continue. You met up there and what happened next?

A. Then we continued south on Leopard until we got past the soccer stadium, which also isn't on that map. The area that I am referring to is further west. Once we got past the soccer stadium, we continued further west and started to go south through houses. Continued going south, heard some small-arms fire over to our east back towards the area that is on the map.

Q. Hold on a second. Now you say you heard small-arms fire. Could you recall what type of small-arms firethat was?

A. I couldn't say what type of weapon it was exactly. It just sounded like small-arms fire.

Q. And you are familiar with the sound of an M-16 and AK-47?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And the difference between them?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you couldn't distinguish between the two?

A. I couldn't distinguish between the two. Once we heard that, we were pretty much close to the far side of Chestnut. And the squad that I was with, we --

Q. When you say "far side on the map" just so everybody can follow along, there is a north, south, east, west directional at the bottom left-hand corner of that, you say on the "far side of Chestnut" are you on the west side or on the east side.

A. We are on the west side, sir. We are still on the west side around Leopard.

Q. Still not visible on this map?

A. Correct, sir.

Q. Okay. Go ahead.

A. We ended up going and stopping in a house so the CO, as far as I knew, could get a better situation awareness of what was going on. I ended up talking to the only individual that was living in the house while he was doing that. I asked him what he knew about the events of the morning. He said that he didn't know anything. I questioned him. I had no reason to believe that he knew of any reason that was going on. So I went back up to the roof and relayed this to Captain McConnell.

Q. Who is Captain McConnell?

A. Captain McConnell is company CO for Kilo Company.

Q. And he was with your QRF; correct?

A. Yes, sir, I let him know that. And eventually the decision where we would leave from the house we were on the west side of Leopard on Route Chestnut. And we continued going southeast back toward the area here on the map. Shortly thereafter, leaving that house, we saw two MAMs running in front of us.

Q. What is a MAM?

A. Military age male, sir. And we received small-arms fire toward us. And other members of the squad and myself we returned fire, stopped for a moment, got back up, and continued to proceed in a southwesterly direction. At that point, an individual came out there walking toward our squad carrying a white flag, I motioned for him to come closer, put him behind a berm with myself and my interpreter and questioned him as to what he was doing with a white flag. He let us know that two individuals ran into his home. One had been shot in the head and one had been shot in the abdomen. He said that the man that was shot in the abdomen continued in a southeast direction. I asked him if he could point out his house from where we are at the time and he pointed directly to the house right in front of us. I relayed this information to Captain McConnell. The decision was made that we went into that house and pretty much stayed firm.

Q. Is that house depicted on this map?

A. No, sir. It is further south. It would be right about in the middle, maybe about 100, 150 meters south. We stayed there for quite a while. I did some tactical questioning of the individuals that were in the house. MAM story was confirmed. There was an individual laying in his living room with a gunshot wound to the head. He was still alive, but he wasn't coherent. I talked to the individual of the house to see what they knew about what was going on in the area, if they knew of any other insurgents, or what they had heard earlier that morning or what they knew. No information from them. It was pretty much pointless for me to continue talking to them. At that point, small-arms fire started going again from the southeast from where we were at this one house, which would be -- the road here, sir, River Road.

Q. He is pointing to a hard pan surface on the right-hand side of the map that's just barely seen on the edge there.

A. It was further -- the small-arms fire that we were hearing was further south on River Road, pretty much in the bottom corner.

Q. The witness is pointing to the right-hand corner of the map further down from the actual image depicted on the screen. Go ahead?

A. And at that point I took up a position along the wall, there was a little rock wall by the house with Sergeant Wolf. Shortly, thereafter Lieutenant Kallop came up --

Q. Who is Lieutenant Kallop?

A. He is one of the platoon commanders for Kilo Company, which platoon, I'm not completely sure.

Q. Okay.

A. He came up in two HMMWVs with, at least, two Iraqi soldiers and some Marines. He exited the vehicles and the Iraqi soldiers had two small children with them. One was a little boy and one was a little girl. The little boy was pretty quiet. The little girl was crying hysterically. I brought them in the house. At that point I got up because I got an interpreter and went in the house and told the Iraqi soldiers through the interpreter to go ahead and give the children over -- there were two women in the house. He gave them to them and left the house and went back to my position along the wall. Sergeant Wolf had a radio with him. I do remember that. And we had learned through the radio that we had received at least one or two wounded in action from the area where we were hearing the small-arms fire along River Road. Then from there the decision was made to make a Hasty LZ, probably about 200 meters west of where we were at this one house.

Q. Is that LZ depicted on this map?

A. No, sir. It is further south from where the house was. I would say it would probably be about, if you look in the far hand corner over there.

Q. Far hand, left-hand corner?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Of this map?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Which is west?

A. Probably about 200 meters south of that corner.

Q. South of that corner?

A. Somewhere in that general direction. After everybody was medivaced, we medivaced the two children and we medivaced the one individual that received the gunshot wound. And then from there we preceded to basically backtrack from where we were at this one house back to Chestnut. Once we got to Chestnut, I told the squad leader --

Q. I am going to stop you there.

A. Yes, sir.

Q. I want you to show the IO, what is Chestnut on that map?

A. Chestnut is the large major road with the dirt curve in the middle of it and pretty much in the center of the map, sir.

Q. Is there anything on that particular map that is identified with a yellow and red there; is that on Chestnut?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What does that say?

A. It says "IED approximate location."

Q. So that is the route Chestnut that you speak of when you speak of Chestnut?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Okay.

A. Once I got up to Route Chestnut I told the squad leader that I was going to go ahead and detach myself from your squad and go find and begin my site exploitation and find the squad leader that was in charge of the convoy that got IEDed.

Q. Okay. I'm going to stop you there. Site exploitation. Explain to the IO what is site exploitation?

A. Site exploitation, sir, is basically I am going into a house or an area where I think possible insurgent activity may have occurred and I'm looking for any evidence of that, weapon, chest rigs, clothing that is known to be used by the insurgents, any kind of insurgent propaganda. Anything that I can find that would give me a reason to believe that insurgent activity was going on in this area.

Q. Go ahead.

A. Once myself and my interpreter detached ourselves from the squad, we made our way going east along Route Chestnut.

Q. Now you came in from the west though; correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Go ahead.

A. And along the way I asked some of the Marines, I said "Who was the squad leader in charge of the convoy that got IED?" One of them told me it was Sergeant Wuterich. I asked him where he was. He said that he was further down Chestnut going eastward in direction. And it was pretty close to about the middle of where that road to the south and where the IED approximate location were marked on there.

Q. So between the dirt road that goes in a southerlydirection off Chestnut in the area that's marked "IED"?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Somewhere in the middle of that area?

A. Somewhere in the middle of that area. And I asked Sergeant Wuterich just give me a basic rundown of what happened. He said they were coming back from the COP and made the left on the Chestnut when --

Q. What is the COP?

A. Combat outpost. He said they made the left on Chestnut and an IED went off on them shortly after making the turn. So they stopped the vehicles, everybody got out to assess the damage to see what happened. And that was when they began taking fire from the south side and the north sides of the road. He said also around that time they began receiving fire from the south side and the north side of the road, a white vehicle pulled up, stopped abruptly, and five MAMs jumped out. And they engaged them. He said after that happened is when -- the way that I understood him was the fire team went to the north to deal with the small-arms fire from there and another fire team and the rest of the squad went to the south following individuals and going into a house where they believed they were receiving small-arms fire from. And I asked him I said, "were there any other places where you guys received small-arms fire from?" He proceeded to tell me that the first house they went into they heard AK-47s being racked along the wall and they threw fragmentation grenades in there to clear the house.

Q. Okay. I am going to stop you really quick. How many sites did he say that they went into? Do you remember?

A. I remember him saying three. The first house they went to is where they rolled the fragmentation grenades in. The second one because they went and cleared that house because they followed another individual through to that house.

Q. Real quick. Is that first house depicted on this map?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And could you do me a favor, I'm handing the witness a pen. On that exhibit, can you circle where house one is --

A. Yes, sir.

Q. -- and put a number "1" next to that? And go ahead and point to the IO where you drew that circle and that number one.

A. This right here would be house one, sir.

Q. And you said there is a house two?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Could you circle that house and put a number "2" next to that. And then point to it on the map as well so the IO can see where that is?

A. This house right here would be house two, sir.

Q. Now you said the white car before all of that. Could you circle where the white car was on that map and put a "C" next to that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And then point on the map there where the white car would have been?

A. In this area right here, sir.

Q. Go ahead and continue.

A. Yes, sir.

The two houses to the south were the ones that he told me about and he also told me about there was another house to the north where they received small-arms fire from.

Q. And do you recognize that house as being referred to as house number four during the course of this investigation?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Could you circle -- or is house four marked on that map?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And it is highlighted up there and marked already as house four?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And what is that dirt road running off of -- in a northerly position off of Chestnut?

A. That is Route Viper, sir.

Q. And the one that runs south is?

A. Route Zebra.

Q. Continue.

A. I asked him if there were any other houses that they went in or anything else that I needed to know. That was also when he preceded to tell me that there was another house that they cleared that was close to the house that they believed to be a possible trigger location. He said in this house they found 30 Jordanian passports and a large amount of currency, American and Iraqi.

Q. Okay. Now is that house depicted on the map?

A. No, sir.

Q. That house is not depicted on that map?

A. I'm sorry. It's on the map. It is not highlighted.

Q. Could you circle that on the map there that you have in front of you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And label that with an "A." And point to it on the map so the IO knows where you circled?

A. It would be this house right here, sir.

Q. And that is the house where the Jordanian passports --how did you say it?

A. Jordanian passports and large amounts of currency.

Q. Did you see the Jordanian passports and the large amounts of currency?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How did you see them?

A. After I finished my conversation with Sergeant Wuterich, I asked him for a security detail so I could do the site exploitation because I have to put my weapon down to do it. He said it would take him a minute to get everything together and I said that was fine and that I would go ahead with my interpreter and go to the house with the passports and the money. My interpreter and myself just walked across straight from, pretty much where it is marked as IED approximate location straight to the house.

Q. Okay.

A. Once we go got in there, there were approximately five MAMs already restrained laying on the ground in the little patio area of this house. And next to them they had already set out the passports just sort of like saying, here, this is what we found here. Here is all of the passports all set out and the money was next to it, both American and Iraqi.

Q. What did you do with the passports and the money?

A. At that point I just left them there. I left them all out because there was already Marines watching the detainees and it was all sitting right there in front of them.

Q. Do you know who the Marines were that they were watching?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Then what did do you next?

A. After that I made the decision that these guys were already detained. I am going to end up talking to them either here or back at the firm base and I would rather do it back at the firm base because I knew I still needed to do the site exploitation there on scene. So I just told the Marines there to sit tight and somebody would be able to come and pick them up and we would take them back to firm base or whatever. After that my interpreter and myself we left there and went back to where I originally talked to Sergeant Wuterich and met up with the security team.

Q. And where did you go from there?

A. From there I left my interpreter there because there were also other detainees there that were being watched by the Iraqi Army. So I left my interpreter there to overhear any conversations that the detainees might behaving with them. And then from there, myself and the security element walked to the white car which was the first place I went to.

Q. What did you see there?

A. I saw a white car with approximately five MAMs lying next to it on the south side of the road?

Q. Did you do a site exploitation of that scene?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you find anything?

A. No, sir.

Q. What were you looking for?

A. I was looking for any weapons, any type of – anything that would lead me to believe that these guys may be insurgents.

Q. Did you find any IDs?

A. I found ID cards for all of them.

Q. Did you collect them?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What kind of IDs were they?

A. They were for Huwias.

Q. How do you spell that for the court reporter, phonetically.

A. Phonetically it would be H-U-W-I-A.

Q. And Huwias ID cards, what are those?

A. They are similar to like getting a driver's license in the U. S. It's like an identification card. It has their name, approximate date of birth, where they were born, and other personal information on it, and a picture.

Q. Is there any sort of ID cards that were issued by coalition forces on them?

A. There were -- I didn't find any IDs that were issued by coalition forces on these individuals. After I finished my site exploitation of the white car, then I preceded to the first house. I walked in the first house and did my site exploitation there looking for the same thing that I was looking for at the white car.

Q. Did you find anything in house one?

A. No, sir.

Q. Where did you go next?

A. After that I then preceded to house two. The same thing, looking for anything that would lead me to believe that there was any kind of insurgent activity.

Q. And in house one you did find deceased people in that house?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. About how many?

A. Six.

Q. How many military age males?

A. At least one.

Q. House two?

A. House two, one.

Q. One military age male? How many deceased in total?

A. At least one.

Q. How many deceased in total?

A. Six to seven. I don't remember exactly how many were in that back room.

Q. So in your site exploitation, did you find anything?

A. No, sir.

Q. And what were you looking for, the same stuff?

A. The same stuff as before.

Q. Where did you go next?

A. After that I asked if there were any other bodies on that side of the road. They said there was one more that was along the ridge line. And the ridge line is --do you need me to mark it on the map, sir?

Q. Yeah. Go ahead and circle where the ridge line was and put an "R" next to that and then point to it on the map as well.

A. The ridge line was somewhere in this area over here closer to house two. Once we got to the ridge line there was one military age male laying dead next to the ridge. I didn't find any ID cards, any weapons or anything on this individual.

Q. Where did you go next?

A. After that I asked if there were any other bodies along this side of the road. They said that there weren't but there were some in more in the house that was on the north side of the road.

Q. Is that where you went next?

A. Yes, sir, that was where I preceded to.

Q. Tell us how that went?

A. Once we got across Chestnut and went up Route Viper and we went to the area marked as house four on the map, once I walked in there, there was a lady in there cleaning the house. And I didn't have my interpreter with me so -- and the little bit of Iraqi or Arabic that I knew and hand gestures, I was able to get her to leave the house so I could do what I had to do. So she left and as soon as I walked in I could look straight down the hallway and I could see in the back bedroom that there were at least two dead bodies in the back and then I preceded to the back bedroom.

Q. I am going to hold you right there for a second. I am handing the witness what has been marked as Investigative Exhibit 60, page ten of ten. When you say you went to that back bedroom of that house you saw some dead bodies. Is that a picture of what you saw that day?

A. It is a picture of what I saw that day, yes, sir.

Q. Is that an accurate reflection of what you saw that day?

A. Not when I first walked in the room, sir. When I first

walked into the room, the bodies were covered.

Q. So that is not an accurate reflection then? There are some things that have changed since that picture was taken?

A. Yes, sir, since when I did the site exploitation.

Q. So when you walked in there, what did you first see?

A. When I walked in there I first saw four bodies that were covered by bed sheets, different, various ones. They are laying the same way they were when I first walked in there. I was the one that removed the sheets from them to try to identify individuals, find their ID cards and try to identify them.

Q. Is there anything else about that picture that is different of when you went in that room and first saw them in person?

A. Yes, sir. The individual in the center of the picture, he has numbers written on his cheek.

Q. And those numbers were not there when you went in there?

A. Correct.

Q. Do you know what those numbers are?

A. As far as I knew, they were for battle damage assessment.

Q. Did you put those numbers on there?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you order those number to be put on there?

A. No, sir.

Q. Aside from the covering and the numbers on the head, is that an accurate reflection of what you saw?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. I am handing the witness what has been marked as Investigative Exhibit 61, page one of one. Do you recognize that photo?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you recognize the person in that photo?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is there anything different about that photo that wasn't there when you saw that person?

A. Doesn't have a sheet on him and he has a number written on his forehead.

Q. Other than that, is there any difference?

A. No, sir.

Q. You said you went in the house to do a site exploitation?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you explained already what a site exploitation is. Did you do anything to this body to determine whether or not this person was an insurgent?

A. The only thing that I could do was just try to find his ID card. I think this individual did have one. I remember only finding two ID cards in that back bedroom.

Q. And you think there is an ID card for that individual?

A. I think that there was.

Q. Would you have confiscated that ID card?

A. Yes.

Q. What would you have done with that ID card?

A. What I would have done with the ID cards is I would have had the name translated and run it through the database of known insurgents or individuals associated with the insurgency that we were building with the S-2.

Q. Do you know if you did it for that individual there?

A. Yes, sir. This individual, I don't remember if he had the ID card or not but the two individuals I did find ID cards for in that back bedroom, I did run those names.

Q. But you can't be sure if that is the person?

A. No, sir, I am not sure.

Q. Did you find anything else on that person?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now that person is wearing a track suit. Did that cause you any concern?

A. No, sir. It didn't because it wasn't completely black and it looked like what you could just find in the normal market in Haditha.

Q. I am handing the witness what has been marked as Investigative Exhibit 62. Do you recognize that person in the photo?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is that a person you saw in that room that day?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is that picture an accurate reflection of what you saw that day?

A. Yes, sir, with the exception of there is no sheet on him and the numbers.

Q. Now did you check that body?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did you find then?

A. I don't remember whether or not I found an ID card on that individual or not. Other than that, that was about it.

Q. I am handing the witness what has been marked as Investigative Exhibit 63, page one of one. Do you recognize that individual in that picture?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Same question. Is there anything different about that picture than what you saw when you went in that room that day?

A. Just the same thing, sir. No sheet and he's got the number written on his cheek.

Q. Can you determine whether or not the ID came from him?

A. I can't remember, sir, which ones it came from. I just remember there were two.

Q. So when you took those two ID cards from somebody, one of these victims --

A. Yes, sir.

Q. -- did you compare the faces and make sure the ID that you had matched one of the persons on the floor?

A. Yes, sir. And they looked generally like him. I just don't remember which ones had it.

Q. I am going to hand the witness Investigative Exhibit 64, page one of one. Do you recognize that picture?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you recognize the person in that picture?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is there any difference between that picture and what you saw that day?

A. Just the same as all of the other previous pictures, sir.

Q. Number and cover?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Staff Sergeant Laughner, did you find any weapons in house four?

A. No, sir.

Q. Were you looking for weapons in that room?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you find any paperwork, anything else that you were looking for in the site exploitation. Did you find anything in that house?

A. No, sir.

Q. How about -- there is anecdotal evidence that there was a black bag taken from house four. Are you aware of any bag taken from house four?

A. No, sir.

Q. Is that something you would have known?

A. If they told me that they would have found some evidence of insurgent activity I hope that they would tell theS-2 and I would find out from there.

Q. Can you think of anything else that you confiscated fromhouse four that day?

A. Just the ID cards. I didn't spend a whole lot of time in house four.

Q. Now I want to go back to the area that you marked as house "A." And we still have Jordanian passports and currency sitting over there. What ever happened to that?

A. Eventually, once we had made the determination of who we were bringing back to firm base for questioning, I went over to there to let those Marines know and to gather all of that stuff up.

Q. What did you do with it?

A. I put it in a big bag. I had Mickey Mouse on it and brought it back with me when I went back to the firm base.

Q. Do you know what ever happened to it after that?

A. OCFI came and picked it up when they took two of those individuals with them.

Q. Now OCFI is?

A. Other Coalition Forces in Iraq.

Q. And you never heard about that stuff again?

A. No, sir.

Q. Do you know anybody in OCFI who might know where the passports and the currency went?

A. I don't know, sir.

Q. Do you have a point of contact or anything before you turned that stuff over to them?

A. No, sir.

Q. Were any of the deceased in house four that you saw, were any of those individuals identified as insurgents?

A. No, sir. When I ran the names from that house, I didn't get any hits on my database.

Q. Do you know if those four that were identified as insurgents that day?

A. Not that I know of.

Q. Were you briefed by Sergeant Wuterich or anybody from his squad with regards to weapons being found in house four?

A. No. I wasn't briefed by anybody finding any weapons in any house.

Q. What was your understanding of what happened in house four?

A. My understanding is that a fire team went in there because they were receiving small-arms fire and they cleared the house.

Q. Do you know Lance Corporal Sharratt?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Have you had an opportunity to talk to Lance Corporal Sharratt?

A. When we were at the firm base together, yes.

Q. Did he tell you anything about this incident?

A. Not that I can recall.

TC[Maj Erickson]: I am going to retrieve these exhibit. Sir, I am going to offer Investigative Exhibit 69. I can make a copy of all of the changes that Staff Sergeant Laughner made to that.

IO: I already have a 69. Do you say you want to substitute a 69?

TC[Maj Erickson]: Yes, Your Honor, I want to substitute 69, the one Staff Sergeant Laughner marked on. Just for clarification or in addition -- or I can add it as Investigative Exhibit 82.

IO: I think it is more appropriate to make it a second exhibit. You already moved in 69.

TC[Maj Erickson]: Aye, aye, sir. The government moves to have this introduced as Investigative Exhibit 82.

CC[Mr. Myers]: Without objection.

IO: Mr. Myers, do you want to use that before you begin your cross?

CC[Mr. Myers]: We would like to see the document, yes, of course.

IO: Why don't we wait until after he is done with cross in case there are any other markings done so it is only onetime.

DC[LtCol Cosgrove]: Sir, I am going to take the cross. I'm not going to use that. We can shut that down. Can I take a break to see if we can make a photo copy of something else.

IO: Yes, we can take a break. We will take recess.

The Article 32 investigation recessed at 1000, 11 June 2007.

The Article 32 investigation was called to order at 1014,11 June 2007.

IO: This hearing is called back to order. Lieutenant Cosgrove, you may examine the witness.

CROSS-EXAMINATION

Questions by Lieutenant Colonel Cosgrove:

Q. Staff sergeant, how are you doing?

A. Pretty good, sir.

Q. You testified last week for Lieutenant Grayson; is that right?

A. For Lieutenant Colonel Chessani; sir.

Q. Prior to that, have you ever testified before?

A. No, sir.

Q. What I want to do then is it is my turn as cross-examination. I want to walk you through some of these things and I'm going to ask for a little more detail; okay?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. First of all, I am going to hand you a diagram that I am going to call Defense Enclosure 51. Do you recognize that document?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Can you tell me what that is?

A. It is a raw diagram that I drew when I was interviewed, I believe, by NCIS.

Q. And this is sort of a rough version, a hand-drawn version, a larger version of what we had seen on the screen earlier?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. First of all, when we saw the photograph on the scene, on the screen, up towards the ceiling, that was north?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And as you've drawn it here on this diagram, if you lay it with the -- read the English with the hole punches down at the bottom, up is north?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you have written an "N" down with an arrow pointing north?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Up at the very top of that diagram where you've written "Sparta"; is that the firm base?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And that was the location for Kilo Company 3/1?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And that is where you are stationed, so to speak, during that time frame in November 2005?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now to the left of this diagram going towards Route Leopard you started a dotted line to that that goes by a circle called "LS bowl." Do you see what I'm talking about?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. That dotted line that is the route you took that morning?

A. Yes, sir, with the QRF.

Q. Okay. Let me then start with the time line. It was morning of 19 November and you were at the COC; is that right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And the COC was at Firm Base Sparta?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You heard the IED go off that morning?

A. I didn't hear the IED go off. I was told it went off.

Q. You were told it went off, in your estimation, almost immediately after the explosion?

A. It was somewhere around that time. I wasn't looking at my watch at all that day, sir. It was around about that time.

Q. Through the course of this investigation you heard the times and dates and estimations of when things happened; is that right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. So you think you have a pretty good idea as to when things happened that morning?

A. A fair idea. I could probably give you a round about time.

Q. 0716, does that sound about right to you from your estimation as to when the IED went off?

A. Some time around that time.

Q. And you gave the estimation that you launched with the second QRF about 0730?

A. Some time around there. That is when I asked them to call on the radio to the squad leader.

Q. So about 15 minutes after the IED exploded that is when you launched with second QRF?

A. That is when I found out about the IED and asked them to have the second QRF slow down and then I left to go grab my interpreter and my gear.

Q. So the task that you completed were gearing up, talking to people, finding out what was going on; is that right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is that what you were doing in that first 15 minutes?

A. For the most part, yes, sir.

Q. My point is you eventually walked on foot from the firm base towards the IED site; right?

A. Eventually later on that day, yes, sir.

Q. When you gave the approximation of 0730, what does that signify. Is that when you launched out on foot?

A. It was around that time. It was a little bit after. I would probably say around 0745.

Q. So approximately one half hour then after the IED explosion is when you launched out on foot with that second QRF?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And that second QRF was led by Sergeant Wolf, he was the squad leader?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And it included Captain McConnell, who was the Company Commander for Kilo Company?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. It included numerous other Marines of that squad?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Sergeant Wolf's squad; right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. So as we look on your diagram, you first traveled west on Haditha Road?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And then you traveled south on Leopard?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And then you traveled west again on the route that I can't read?

A. It should be route Teak, sir.

Q. Route Teak. Okay. And then you sort of go in a southeastern direction then to what you first marked as the OP; is that right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How long does it take you to take that zigzag path that I just described?

A. I am not sure. Probably -- we weren't moving too fast so I would probably say maybe 30 minutes, maybe.

Q. So by your estimation now we are up to about 0815?

A. Probably around that time, 0815, 0820.

Q. You described in your statements and I think on direct that at some point during this evolution the initial half hour you heard small-arms fire coming from the IED site; is that right?

A. From that direction, yes, sir.

Q. So if you launched at about 0745 and you established an OP at about 0815, some time within that half hour is when you heard small-arms fire?

A. Some time within that half hour, yes, sir.

Q. And you are not sure whether it was 5.66 or 7.62 rounds?

A. I am not sure if it was M-16 or AK-47. They just sounded like small-arms fire from that direction.

Q. It could have been either? It could have been both?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You were certain though that it was coming from the direction of the IED site?

A. It was coming from east of us which would have been toward the IED area.

Q. Did you know at this time that is where the IED site would be?

A. I knew it was generally over there off of River Road and Chestnut somewhere over towards that direction.

Q. So you knew or Sergeant Wolf or Captain McConnell knew that you were headed towards Chestnut; right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did somebody have radio contact?

A. Somebody did.

Q. Not you?

A. Wasn't me, no, sir.

Q. At that time then prior to 0815, did you feel that you were under fire at all?

A. I didn't feel that we were under fire, but I know that was the reason why we stopped at the OP was because of that.

Q. Have you been under fire before?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How long did you stay at that OP?

A. The first one you're referring to, sir?

Q. Yes.

A. Probably about 20 minutes. Maybe a little bit longer.

Q. What were you doing on the OP for those 20 minutes?

A. I was talking to the resident of the house.

Q. About what?

A. Just if he knew of any insurgent activity, if he had heard the IED go off that morning.

Q. And that was through your interpreter, Sal?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And he was from the Titan Corporation. Do you speak limited Arabic?

A. I knew enough if we had to tell somebody to stop and that was it.

Q. But nothing of significance? You cannot carry on a conversation in Arabic with an Iraqi citizen?

A. Right.

Q. As a member, you were the HET team NCO for Kilo Company?

A. I was one of two HET assets in direct support to Kilo Company.

Q. As counterintelligence in that situation, what would you describe your primary mission as you're going out towards the IED site?

A. To try to talk to individuals along the way and try to find out if there were any other insurgent activity or if they knew of anybody that was trying to harm that patrol.

Q. Your job is not evidence collection of some sort is it?

A. If it is there, then I would be picking it up. That way if, for example, I find somebody with insurgent paraphernalia, CDs, something of that nature, because I am going to bring that individual back because I am finding this possible insurgent propaganda on them. I can use that in my further-on questioning with that individual.

Q. So any item that you could use to further the mission or for interrogation later?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And that would be Jordanian passports, money, photographs ID cards, things that you've listed off?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Nothing of significance that you found in that first OP?

A. No, sir.

Q. From that OP then you launched out again in a southeasterly direction?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who was with you when you launched from that OP?

A. They were petty spread out. I had Sal right next to me. I always keep the interpreter close to me and then we were pretty spread out. We were dispersed.

Q. As you show the dotted line, you go from the OP which is north of Chestnut, you cross over Chestnut and then come down to approximately south of the IED site?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who was with you? Who is your team, so to speak, as you were launching from that OP site south of Chestnut?

A. Just the squad.

Q. So the entire squad, including Sergeant Wolf?

A. The squad -- as far as which fire team, I'm not sure.

All I remember is that Sal was right behind me, and we were all dispersed around.

Q. I guess my point is, you did not detach from the QRF at that point?

A. No, sir.

Q. You were still part of the QRF?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Captain McConnell is still with you?

A. He is somewhere in the area, yes, sir.

Q. Did you leave anybody behind in that OP?

A. Not that I recall. I think there was maybe a fire team that was forward and doing an overwatch while we went through.

Q. Now when you are south of the IED site, south of Chestnut, you believe that you came under fire?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Why do you say you came under fire?

A. I heard the small-arms fire and seeing dirt kicking up in front of me again. It sounded like they were coming towards us.

Q. How far to your front or to your side did you see rounds kicking up?

A. I would say probably about 100, 150 meters.

Q. At that point you could hear both M-16 and AK-47s?

A. No, sir. I believe it was just AK-47.

Q. At that time you hear just AK-47s?

A. I believe so. Once we left the OP and we started going down that route.

Q. AK-47s fire 7.62 rounds?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. M-16s fire 5.56 rounds?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You know the difference between two of the sounds?

A. One is a little. There is definitely a different sound.

Q. And that different sound, as you are south of Chestnut, you believe that you were taking fire from AK-47s?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now if you were on the OP at about 0815 and you stayed there for about 20 minutes, it would be about 0845 when you are taking fire south of Chestnut?

A. Probably a little bit closer to nine because once we -- it was after we had left the OP and already crossed over Chestnut and already started to get east of Leopard. We weren't moving that fast once we got into the open desert.

Q. At this point do you realize you are south of the IED site?

A. My opinion is that I am pretty south, maybe a little southwest of it.

Q. Is your point to circle back to Chestnut to the IED site?

A. Eventually. Once we left the one house we were at we went back to Chestnut.

Q. But you were on sort of the outer ring. As you described it, you are the second QRF. So you took amore roundabout way?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you weren't leading that squad any way; right? It was Sergeant Wolf?

A. Correct.

Q. Back to taking fire. You are taking fire from theAK-47s about 100 meters to your front is where rounds were impacting?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is that about the same time or exactly the same time that you see two military age males running?

A. I saw them shortly after that.

Q. Was it your belief that you were taking fire from those two individuals?

A. Yes.

Q. You yourself fired two rounds at those individuals?

A. In that general direction.

Q. Others from your squad also fired at those two individuals?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know if anyone from your squad hit those individuals?

A. No, sir. I don't know if anybody particularly hit them.

Q. Were you able to find out later whether they had been wounded or killed?

A. As far as I knew, the individual that was in the living room or one of my assumptions that the individual laying in the living room with the head shot wound and the other one that the guy with the white flag told us about, those are those two guys.

Q. Okay. So you, as well as the squad, take fire, return fire, at the two military age males down there south of Chestnut; right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. It was right about that time when another Iraqi individual comes at you with a white flag?

A. It was shortly after that happened. Once the squad returned fire and I returned fire, then we stopped for a second, took a knee, and then we started going in our direction, again, southwest. Then that was when the individual with the white flag came towards us.

Q. And he tells you that he has somebody back at the house with a head wound.

A. Yes, sir.

Q. As well as there is a second individual who was shot in the abdomen?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And that second individual continued to run? He had run south?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Were you able to talk to the individual with the head wound?

A. No, sir. When we got in there, he was alive and he was saying something. And I asked my interpreter if he could make out what he was saying. And Sal told me he couldn't understand him. It was more or less jibberish.

Q. Were you able to get an ID card from him?

A. No. The individual had no identification, no anything on him.

Q. Were you able to identify whether these two individuals, particularly the one you say with the head wound were insurgents or not?

A. No, sir. I didn't have anything to say "yes" or "no". All I had was just circumstantial, just coming from the same direction, that we had originally heard small-arms fire, and we believe that we were shot at by these two individuals.

Q. Well insurgents don't wear uniforms; correct?

A. Right.

Q. They don't have ID cards that say they are insurgents; correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And oftentimes they won't tell you they are insurgents or not; right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. So oftentimes it is just based on circumstantial evidence on whether they are insurgents or not?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you believe those two individuals were insurgents?

A. I believe, yes, that they were.

Q. Why?

A. The individual that we had found in the house, he also had tattoos on him. And from doing prior interrogations with other individuals that had them, they told me that, in talking to other people, that people that had tattoos weren't exactly good people. They had either been in prison or they were involved in some sort of criminal activity because tattoos were looked down upon.

Q. Okay. So from that?

A. And from that was the only other thing that I could base it on. The guy didn't have any ID on him. He had, I think, he had -- I want to say that he had his little beads around his wrist too.

Q. As well as taking fire?

A. Correct.

Q. And then running away?

A. Correct.

Q. Now you did find weapons on these two? At least one; right?

A. No, sir. We didn't find the weapons and we didn't go back to where we had originally been shot at.

Q. Has it been your experience as someone in counterintelligence that you will not often find weapons on insurgents?

A. Correct.

Q. And that they will stash their weapons?

A. They will drop and run.

Q. And others will pick them up and take them away?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now it was at this location where you have the wounded Iraqi with the head wound where somebody called for a medivac?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And this was getting sort of late in the morning; is that right?

A. It is getting pretty late in the morning, yes, sir.

Q. About how late in the morning?

A. We were at that house for a while. I would probably say at least an hour and a half, two hours the entire duration. The medivac wasn't called until -- the medivac wasn't called until, I would say, almost probably a good 45 minutes to maybe an hour after we had already been there.

Q. Let me try to orient you towards time so that it will become clear to the IO perhaps later -- why you were at this house and the medivac has been called or immediately before the medivac has been called, Second Lieutenant Kallop, at the time, Second Lieutenant Kallop, does he bring two children up to that house?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And that would be a young boy and young girl?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You checked them out as to whether they were injured or not?

A. I didn't go to check them out. I could see one of them

had -- I can't remember. I think it might have been the little boy, had a little bit of blood on him, I think maybe on his leg. But other than that, they seemed to be all right.

Q. And it is your understanding that Second Lieutenant Kallop had been able to retrieve these two, these were survivors from house one and transported them to you and later to be medivaced?

A. At the time I didn't know where they came from. I asked him about it later.

Q. And that is your understanding?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. So while you were in the house, while you are waiting for the medivac, this is the timing that these two individuals, these two -- a young boy and young girl, come to that house?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Also during that time were you aware -- could you hear the Cobras firing east of your position?

A. I could see them.

Q. What could you witness from your vantage point?

A. From my vantage point, this is the time when I was sitting behind the little rock wall with Sergeant Wolf -- I could see at least one Cobra. He was pretty much southeast of where we were again. And I could see him circling around. And at one point he did fire some rounds somewhere in that general area down there.

Q. Were you also there when fixed wing dropped 500-poundbombs?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You could obviously hear that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. See that as well.

A. See the smoke cloud, yes, sir.

Q. And this is right about the same time frame within that hour that you are at the house?

A. It was sometime within that time frame. I think it was after they had already called for the medivac. I remember them calling for the medivac because of the wounded in action that we had taken; and I think also for that individual. I wasn't there next to the radio the entire time. But for the individual that we had found in the living room and then when they called that in for that, then those children came and we found out about the WIA. From my understanding, they were just trying to consolidate everybody into one medivac area.

Q. So it was approximately three hours now from the point that you launched on foot from the firm base; isn't that right?

A. I would say probably close to that.

Q. During those three hours then, approximately up to 1045 local Haditha time on 19 November, you had seen a lot of action within those three hours?

A. I had seen a lot of stuff happen.

Q. Pretty chaotic you would say?

A. It was -- definitely had its moments of chaos.

Q. Pretty dynamic event for Kilo company?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Throughout that morning, could you hear small-arms fire throughout the city?

A. I just remember hearing it on the original route down, then when we got shot at after the first OP, and then again when we were down there at the one house where the individual with the white flag was.

Q. Could you also hear it east of the location where the Cobras were firing?

A. I couldn't hear that well. I remember hearing a small explosion down in that area.

Q. Could you hear things over the radio traffic?

A. Once I was next to the wall with Sergeant Wolfe I was. I was able to hear anything.

Q. Sound chaotic to you on the radio?

A. It sounded just like combat reporting. Everybody just trying to call stuff in.

Q. Now you have taken us all the way down on your diagram again?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Dotted line, all the way down past Chestnut in a southeasterly location, the final place on that map is a little square, I believe you wrote "house;" is that right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. That is where you are at now as we talk?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Which is about 1045 in the morning?

A. It was around that time. It might be later. It might be earlier. I wasn't watching my watch the entire day.

Q. How do you get from that point then up to Chestnut?

A. Basically we backtracked along the sway same way that we came in. We didn't go quite as west before we got to Chestnut. But for the most part, the same way that we came in.

Q. You described arriving at the IED site and talking to Sergeant Wuterich?

A. [No verbal response].

Q. That would have been approximately 1300?

A. Some time around that time. Maybe earlier, maybe later.

Q. By the time you got there it was your understanding that things had died down there on Chestnut?

A. Yes.

Q. There were vehicles on Chestnut?

A. Military vehicles or civilian vehicles.

Q. Hummers?

A. Yes, there were.

Q. There was a squad standing security on Chestnut?

A. There was somebody standing security. I didn't find out who it was.

Q. Did you see detainees there at that time?

A. I saw them eventually once I finished my conversation with Sergeant Wuterich.

Q. And again, to the best of your estimation, and I believe it's in your statement, approximately 1300 is when you arrived on Chestnut.

A. Around that time. It took us a little bit longer to get back from the house. We ended up stopping and holding up by a big rock pile for a while.

Q. Now with counterintelligence what is your mission then at that point as you arrive on Chestnut at about 1300?

A. When I arrived there I am trying to identify any insurgents.

Q. You are looking for insurgents and you are looking for any information that would lead you to insurgents?

A. Yes.

Q. And if there are insurgents or suspected insurgents you are looking for information, items that you could use to talk to them; is that right?

A. Correct.

Q. And that is at the point that you talked to Sergeant Wuterich; is that right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. That conversation with Sergeant Wuterich is characterized as very short?

A. It wasn't very long.

Q. Cut to the point?

A. Yes.

Q. And for the goal of finding out where the insurgents were?

A. Yes.

Q. And whether or not there was any information that you could use in your subsequent interrogation; is that right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. It was not to find out specifically what had happened or didn't happen inside houses one, two, three, four, whatever?

A. Yes. That is why I asked Sergeant Wuterich what happened because he was there and I wasn't.

Q. You are not a cop; right?

A. Correct.

Q. You are not there to be some sort of crime scene analysis; right?

A. No, sir.

Q. You just wanted to get the low down dirty from Sergeant Wuterich from what had happened?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you even take any notes at that moment?

A. No, I didn't take any notes, not that I recall.

Q. And you didn't provide any sort of statement to anyone regarding this until months after or at least weeks after the incident; is that right?

A. Correct.

Q. You spoke to, I believe, a Colonel Watt from the Army?

A. No. I talked to Colonel Connell -- I think it was Colonel Connell that I first talked to.

Q. And that would have been in February of '06?

A. Yes, sir, around that time.

Q. The first statement that you gave to NCIS was at the dam and that is 23 March?

A. That was the first time I talked to them.

Q. That was the first time you talked to them?

A. Yes. I didn't give them a written statement at the time.

Q. What we are looking at here, which I referred to as Defense Enclosure 51, that is a diagram that you provided on 2 June to NCIS 2006; is that right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And that would have been at your duty station Camp Lejeune?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. So one of the things you did then was to conduct an assessment of each site?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you walk by the IED site as well?

A. I walked by that first and then I went over to the house with the passports and money.

Q. But you didn't spend much time there?

A. No. Not after I went there and made the assessment that I could do this at a later time because they were probably going to come back to the firm base with me.

Q. The first place you went then and took photographs, I believe -- well, first of all, you had your camera with you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. It was a digital camera?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. A Marine Corps issued camera?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You took photographs on the little dotted line route south of Chestnut prior to going to the IED site?

A. Are you asking me if I took pictures along the route when we got to the first house with the men with the white flag.

Q. Probably. But let me ask you a different way. Did you take photographs throughout what you've already described?

A. Yes.

Q. When you are at the IED site, approximately 1300, the first thing you go over to then after seeing the IED blast was the white car?

A. No, sir. The first thing I went to was the house with the passports.

Q. That would be north of Chestnut?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who was there? Do you recall the Marines?

A. I remember there were a few Marines out there seeing security of the detainees. Which ones, I don't remember who.

Q. Was Corporal Dela Cruz there?

A. He may have been. I don't remember, sir.

Q. In your statement that you provided to NCIS, you stated that there were five to six male Iraqi individuals there detained; is that right?

A. About five to six.

Q. There was also a female?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And that is where you found or they found 30 Jordanian passports?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. As well as $1,000 in U. S. currency?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. As well as 1 million, approximately, Iraqi Denara?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What is the significance of those three items to you?

A. The significance to those items to me is that there were more passports in the house than there were people and it was more money than most people would keep on them.

Q. $1,000 U. S. dollars is a significant amount?

A. At least in that area.

Q. One million Iraqi Denara is approximately $500?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. So the 30 passports as well as that type of money sets off bells and whistles in your mind?

A. Yes, sir. Mostly the passports.

Q. What is the significance of Jordanian passports as opposed to any other passports?

A. From prior reporting that I had seen, ports of entry in Jordan were also used as an entry point for foreign fighters and other insurgents coming into Iraq.

Q. So somebody that had Jordanian passports and money could be somebody or likely to be somebody that was feeding the insurgency?

A. That's a possibility, sir.

Q. Did you get any ID cards from those seven individuals?

A. From those five individuals that I found there?

Q. Those five to six males and one female?

A. I can't remember if they had them or not. If they did, I just would have left them on them because I was bringing them back to firm base. As far as the female, I don't remember. The only thing I remember with her was that I had to request permission to bring her back to the firm base.

Q. Did the ID cards then you seized those from the deceased but the detainees you left on their person?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. From there where did you go?

A. From the house, sir?

Q. Right.

A. Then that was when I went back to Sergeant Wuterich and picked up the security element and then went to the white car.

Q. With the security element then you went from, I believe in sequence, white car, house one, house two; is that right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you were being guided along by what understanding you had of the sequence of events?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you were looking again as a counterintelligence person for any sign of anything to be useful to you, either whether there would be insurgents or things you can use to talk to insurgents later?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. So you quickly looked over the white car?

A. Yes, sir. I went through the interior of the car and the trunk of the car.

Q. So it is your understanding that EOD had already been there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Within the four or five hours since the IED blast, whatever happened with that white car? Other Marines had been through that white car as well?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. The individuals that were deceased outside of the white car would have been moved?

A. It is possible.

Q. You are just not sure?

A. I am not sure. All I know is I took photographs of the way I found them when I began my site exploitation.

Q. You then went into house one?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Took a quick walk through of the house?

A. I went through there and tried to identify anybody in that house.

Q. Took IDs from that house?

A. I think I took at least one from that house.

Q. You then went into house two as well; is that true?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And from within there you saw a number of deceased as well as you took some ID cards; is that right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You say that you didn't see or find any signs of insurgency or any type of insurgent activity in that house?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. In your statement do you recall stating that you saw both 5.56 as well as 7.62 shell casings?

A. I remember as I walked down that hallway I saw 5.56 shell casings down there and something that didn't look to be 5.56.

Q. Do you know what 7.62 brass looks like?

A. Yes, I do, sir.

Q. Did you pick it up and inspect it?

A. No.

Q. It looked to you to be not 5.56 though?

A. Correct.

Q. Why is that?

A. It looked a little bit fatter than 5.56.

Q. 7.62 is fatter?

A. It looked a little bit.

Q. In your estimation what would you say those shell casings were?

A. When I walked through there, I thought they could possibly be AK-47s rounds.

Q. How many of them were there?

A. I don't remember. They were all scattered on the ground, all kind of mixed in together. There was a good number there.

Q. Did you have to kick them out of the way?

A. I pushed them to the side to get in the doorway.

Q. So there was more than one?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Could there have been a pile?

A. I don't remember a pile. I just remember them being flat on the ground.

Q. But perhaps a dozen or more?

A. Probably a dozen or more, yes.

Q. You didn't pick them up?

A. No.

Q. You didn't take them with you?

A. No.

Q. You didn't photograph them?

A. No.

Q. From there on your walk through you went to the ridge line?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Well, let me ask you this, a question I didn't ask you about house two. If those were AK-47 rounds, would that not be a sign of insurgent activity inside of house number 2?

A. Not necessarily because everybody in their homes, they had AK-47s. They were allowed to keep one and it wasn't uncommon for me when going through and just talking to people to find expended AK-47 brass in a home. The kids would pick it up and play with it.

Q. From there you went to the ridge line?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. That is the one deceased military age male that you saw there -- that you pointed out, sort of, between houses one and two in Chestnut?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Taking photographs the whole way?

A. I took a photograph of the ridge line individual.

Q. Now from there you went up to house, what we referred to as house number 4; is that right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now how was it identified to you at that time?

A. It was told -- they pointed -- the Marines that were with me on the security detail, they pointed it out tome. They said it would be the one up there by the blue gate.

Q. It was within a wall compound?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. There were actually two houses within that compound?

A. I remember two houses being close together. Whether or not it was within that compound, I just remember going through the blue gate and those two houses close together.

Q. To get to the house, which would be house four, there was an exterior wall?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And that is what you described as a blue gate?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You had to walk through that blue gate to get inside of patio area to get inside the house?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You walked through there with your security detail?

A. I walked in there and I was the first individual. They were behind me.

Q. At that time you didn't have Sal, your interpreter, with you?

A. No, I didn't take Sal with me the entire exploitation.

Q. You said you encountered an Iraqi female inside house four; is that right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You didn't have Sal with you?

A. Correct.

Q. You speak rudimentary Arabic?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You said, I believe, through whatever Arabic that you could muster, as well as hand signals, you were just able to get her out of the room?

A. Yes, sir. Actually get her out of the house.

Q. That is the extent of your conversation so to speak with that female?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. No other conversations within that house with any Iraqis?

A. No.

Q. You went directly to the back bedroom?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you look around the house at all other than going in that back bedroom?

A. No, sir. What caught my eye was the bodies on the floor and I just walked directly back there to them.

Q. Well, you have to go through a door obviously; right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And as you described the back bedroom, there are other rooms that you have to go through to get there?

A. There was like a little sitting area that I had to get through there and then there was like a hallway where the stairs were I think.

Q. Anything out of place in that route from the front door to the back bedroom?

A. No, sir.

Q. Everyone seem calm?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Approximately what time of day do you believe that would have been?

A. Probably around 1400, maybe a little bit after, maybe a little before.

Q. Actually, let me show you what I am going to call Defense Enclosure 52. Can you flip through those five pages for me?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you recognize those pictures?

A. These are the photographs that I took in house four.

Q. When we talk about how you had a military issued digital camera and your numerous pictures throughout the day?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. These five are the five you took inside of what we call house four?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Naval Criminal Investigative Service, NCIS, was able to recover some photographs later from your camera?

A. Yes, sir, off the card.

Q. And on this document, Defense Enclosure 52, it has a date and time. Do you see that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. It says "19 November 2005, 1425" is the time that photograph was taken?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Roughly 2:30 in the afternoon?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Does that sound about accurate?

A. That sounds about right.

Q. And the others follow closely through that time. The last photograph would have been 1429?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. So when we see on the first photograph -- I understand this is in black and white and that is the quality we have at the moment. But what we see here are individuals in that back bedroom in the sheets as you described?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. That was something that somebody other than you placed in that condition?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. The subsequent photographs, the four photographs, are the four males, the four deceased males in that back bedroom?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. As we can see if you're looking at these photographs, they no longer have the sheets on them; right?

A. Correct.

Q. Who removed those sheets?

A. I did.

Q. Did you position the bodies other than what we see therewith the sheets on?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you move the bodies as you took the sheet off?

A. No, sir. All I did was just -- all I had to do was remove the sheets to try to identify them?

Q. As we see them laying there on the front picture with the sheets on, they are all on the floor of that bedroom?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. There is a bed in that bedroom as well?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. There is a closet in that bedroom; is that right?

A. I remember there being like a wardrobe like thing.

Q. None of these individual, the deceased individuals, was inside that wardrobe when you saw them?

A. No, sir. They were all laying on the floor.

Q. None of these individuals were on the bed.

A. Correct.

Q. They were all placed on the floor inside of that bedroom?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And when you took the subsequent four photographs you simply removed the sheet and took your photograph and presumably put the sheet back over.

A. I don't think that I put the sheet back over but I took the sheet off of them to take the photograph.

Q. Did you look inside that back wardrobe?

A. Some of it -- some of the doors, I remember, being open, at least one of them. It didn't look to me like there was anything out of place.

Q. Did you look inside the ones that were not open?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you become aware at a later time that there was anAK-47 that was hidden inside that back bedroom?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you find any AK-47s that was inside that house when you were there?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you find any Jordanian passports in the house when you were there?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you find a black bag or suitcase when you were there?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now you were told however that two AK-47s were recovered from that house?

A. I was told that there were two AK-47s recovered from there and that they were already taken by EOD. I had learned earlier when I was walking through, back when I picked up security detail, back to car one, the white car, that I asked if anybody had found any weapons. And they had said that they had found eight AK-47s all in total but they had already been picked up by EOD and taken by them.

Q. So you heard that eight total were found that day; is that right, in that vicinity? Is that your understanding?

A. Yes.

Q. As well as two presumably of those eight were found inside of that house; is that right?

A. Correct.

Q. Now I know that you didn't see it, but if you had found two AK-47s, some Jordanian passports as well as suitcase inside that house, as a counterintelligence personnel, what would that signify to you?

A. The weapons and the passports combined would have led me to believe that there is more than likely some insurgent activity going there of some nature.

Q. Of the four individuals that were inside of that bedroom, you found two ID cards; is that right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Throughout that day you found 15, 16, ID cards?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And that is the larger number of the deceased?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Those 15 to 16, did you take good notes as to which ID card was found on which deceased?

A. Not with which individual but from which location.

Q. So you can recall or you had notes that at least two came from house four?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Within the four deceased, you are not sure which four?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Those 15 or 16, that is what ran through the database?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And that was in Kilo Company?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. I believe you stated in one statement or another that that was sort of an old incomplete database; is that right?

A. It wasn't an old one. It was new because we had began it when the battalion had first gotten up in the area.

Q. But the inaccuracy wasn't because it was old it was because it was new and had not been completed yet?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you have a percentage in your mind as to – scratch that. How incomplete was that database?

A. It was pretty new, but it was a good size for being as new as it was. I think we had only had it for maybe, maybe, about a month and a half, maybe a little bit more.

Q. Now there were other more complete databases at battalion level and regimental level?

A. Yes, sir, with the battalion S-2.

Q. Did you send those IDs and those names up to battalion?

A. I sent the ID cards back up there.

Q. Did you get any word back from battalion or regiment?

A. No.

Q. At some point you were also interrogating some detainees along Chestnut; is this right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is it at that time that you believe you found out the name of the individual that was responsible for that IED blast?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was that individual actually found that day?

A. Not that day but probably a day and a half later.

Q. Did you also go through what was the suspected trigger house?

A. Yes.

Q. What did you find? What did you see when you went through that trigger house?

A. When I went through that house, to me it appeared that it was an unfinished house that it was still being built. That it didn't look to me like anybody lived there. But in the one room overlooking Chestnut where the IED went off, there was a sleeping mat in there almost directly underneath the window. And that was the only thing that was pretty much in that house expect for construction material.

Q. Trigger house meaning that that would be a location for somebody to detonate the IED as the convoy drove across Chestnut?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You believe that that was the trigger house?

A. I believe that it was.

Q. It is because it had a good line of site to Chestnut?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Because it was unfinished?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Because you found that sleeping mat?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Any other things that you found that would lead you to believe that it was the trigger house?

A. The only other thing that I thought about was when I went through the house, it had good egress routes back to -- if somebody were to do the trigger there, most of the trigger men, they left after the IED and they run. He could have went back into the north side of Haditha and pretty much disappeared.

Q. And that trigger house, that was north of Chestnut; is that right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. It was near route Viper?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And therefore it would be near what we called house four?

A. It would be on the east side of Viper. There was a large depression in the ground.

Q. East side of Viper, north of Chestnut?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Give me two seconds; all right?

A. Yes, sir.

DC[LtCol Cosgrove]: Sir, in the interest of expediency given that this is a 32 instead of a court-martial, can Mr. Culp ask a couple of follow-up questions instead of him relaying to me and me relaying it to staff sergeant if we keep it tight?

IO: I will allow him to ask a few questions but I don't want to tag team all of these witnesses. This witness doesn't seem to be one that we will have a problem with.

CC[Mr. Culp]: I just have a few questions for you, Staff Sergeant Laughner.

Questions by Mr. Culp:

Q. Now you remember talking to NCIS?

A. Yes.

Q. And that was in March of 2006?

A. Yes.

Q. And you remember talking to Colonel Connell in February of 2006?

A. Yes.

Q. Isn't it true that what you told Colonel Connell was that Sergeant Wuterich said that he had taken fire from the north and the south and he said there was a house up north where they had engaged some individuals?

A. I was referring to house four when I told that to Colonel Connell, the same one that he had told me from the north side.

Q. Did you tell Colonel Connell that Sergeant Wuterich said he was taking fire from that house?

A. As far as I remember I did.

Q. If I showed you the testimony that you gave Colonel Connell, would it refresh your recollection?

A. It might.

CC[Mr. Culp]: Can I do that, Your Honor, hand him a portion of the transcript that you have?

IO: You can.

CC[Mr. Culp]: Just look at the highlighted portion.

Questions by Mr. Culp continued:

Q. So you didn't tell Colonel Connell that Sergeant Wuterich said that he was taking fire from that house?

A. No. In that right there I pretty much double spoke. When I talked to Colonel Connell, I told him that they took fire from the north and south side of the road and that there was a house up north. And what I had meant was from the house where they were on the north side, house four.

Q. And if you didn't tell NCIS in your interview with NCIS anything about what Sergeant Wuterich had told you about taking fire from the north side of the house and given that you told Colonel Connell -- you didn't tell Colonel Connell that Sergeant Wuterich said that he was taking fire from that house, would you agree that this is the first time in this hearing today that you've expressed to any officials that Sergeant Wuterich said he was taking fire from that house?

A. From that house?

Q. From that house.

A. From house four, yes.

Q. So today would be the first time that you expressed to officials that Sergeant Wuterich said that he was taking fire from that house?

A. Specifically from that house, yes, as far as I know.

Q. A couple more questions. Were you ever told that one of the wives in house -- from house three and four reported to the Marines that Marines did take a suitcase from that house?

A. No, sir.

IO: Hold on a second. I don't have a house three. I have a house A, a one, a two, and a four. But I don't have a house three. So I don't know -- when you use that phrase, what are you talking about?

CC[Mr. Culp]: I am sorry, sir. I will clarify.

Questions by Mr. Culp continued:

Q. There were two homes in the compound.

A. I remember there were two homes very close together.

CC[Mr. Culp]: Sir, I will just make a proffer.

IO: I just want to know what you are talking about. I have -- Are you saying house A, one, two -- I have one, two, A, and four. Is there a three that I am supposed to know about?

CC[Mr. Culp]: Are you looking at this diagram, sir?

IO: I am just recounting what I've been told so far. I have a picture and I have a diagram. Neither of them have a three on it.

Questions by Mr. Culp continued:

Q. Okay. I am going to hand you a diagram. Can you mark where the two houses were that you saw very close together?

A. You want me to put both houses in here?

Q. Please. We are going call it Defense Enclosure 53. And, sir, again, this is just for your sake of understanding and this is a proffer --

IO: That is what I am asking. What is house number three?

CC[Mr. Culp]: You will hear house three a lot throughout the remaining of 32.

IO: Okay. And it is the one right next to house four is what I am being told; right?

CC[Mr. Culp]: Yes, sir.

IO: Okay. That is all I am asking.

Questions by Mr. Culp continued:

Q. Was it your understanding that the lady who lived in house four, did you understand that she lived in house four or did you think that there were family members from house three and four collectively?

A. I didn't know who lived in that house. All I knew is that there was a woman in there and that there were four dead bodies in the back bedroom.

Q. Were you ever told, at any time, that a wife of the deceased, Ehab, that she reported to the Marines a couple of days later that one of the deceased had a suitcase taken, his suitcase was taken from the house, were you ever told that?

A. No.

Q. If Ehab, the wife of one of the deceased, if you had learned that the wife of one of the deceased said that this person happened to work on the Jordanian border and his suitcase was in fact taken, what conclusions would you have drawn if any from that information?

A. Can you state that for me one more time, sir?

Q. Sure. You testified that you didn't take a suitcase from the house?

A. Right.

Q. You didn't find any Jordanian passports from that house?

A. Correct.

Q. If you had learned that very soon after this day, 19 November, that a wife who was present in this location between house three and four, a wife of the deceased had reported that one of those four deceased was a cousin who worked on the Jordanian border and Marines on that day had taken his suitcase, what conclusions if any would you have drawn from that?

A. They took a suitcase because he worked on the Jordanian border?

Q. No. The facts are that he worked on the Jordanian border and his suitcase was taken?

A. I would want to know what was in the suitcase.

Q. So you were never told anything about the suitcase being taken?

A. No.

Q. You were never told anything about the father, the old man or an old man, having an AK-47 hidden in the house?

A. No.

Q. You said that you looked through the house to determine if they were good guys or bad gays?

A. At that point when I got in house four I just wanted to try to identify the individuals because I didn't want to create a bigger scene with the women being there and me asking her to leave.

Q. Do you remember the wardrobe?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember there being a lock on the wardrobe?

A. No.

Q. Do you look in the wardrobe?

A. I looked in the one that was open. There was a door open on it.

Q. What did you see inside?

A. Just clothes?

Q. You didn't see any blood?

A. No.

Q. Fair to say that you didn't look very carefully in that room for ID cards or weapons?

A. The only thing that I looked for ID cards was on the individuals.

Q. You stated before that you engaged a couple of men who were running?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What were they wearing?

A. They looked to me like they were just wearing standard dishdasha. They didn't look like they were wearing track suits. They looked like they were wearing the man dress.

Q. Just the man dress?

A. Yeah.

Q. Any difference in your mind between a man dress and track suit?

A. One is going to look more like western style clothing and one is going to look more traditional.

Q. Do insurgents prefer white man suits over the tracksuits?

A. Everybody was different. Some preferred it, some didn't.

Q. You said of the two men that you did find that were shot, you said that you thought they were insurgents?

A. I thought the one because I only found one.

Q. And there were two factors that you considered?

A. Yes.

Q. Tattoos?

A. Yes.

Q. No ID card?

A. No ID card and that he was coming from the same direction that we had been shot at.

Q. Did you see him run into the house?

A. I saw two individuals running shortly thereafter we got shot at. I didn't see him run into that house.

Q. Possible that the persons that were in the house were not the people that you saw running?

A. It is possible.

Q. But two important factors are no ID card and no tattoos?

A. Correct.

Q. Possible to be a criminal or a criminal person who has gotten a tattoo and not be an insurgent?

A. Say that one more time.

Q. Is it possible for a person in Iraq or in Haditha to have been a bad guy, a thief, or somebody who has been to jail and gotten a tattoo, and for him not to be an insurgent.

A. It is possible but I would look at it as unlikely.

Q. So most criminals are also insurgents?

A. Most were that I found, yes.

Q. And the other 50% or 33% was the fact that he didn't have an ID card?

A. Correct.

Q. You didn't find ID cards on two of the men that were in house four; correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Did you consider that?

A. I considered that, but they were already in the house. I didn't know if they lived there or not or if they were visiting or where they were from.

Q. And you never brought your interpreter back to talk to that female or any other females to get ID cards or to find them?

A. Correct.

Q. I just want to confirm that the ID cards you took, there is a type of ID card called the key personnel ID cards, something along those lines. Iraqis are issued these who are friendly to American forces?

A. Are you talking about the ones that are issued by CAG?

Q. Yes, I am.

A. Okay.

Q. The two ID cards that you found, they weren't one of those?

A. I never found any ID cards that were issued by CAG on anybody.

Q. Did you ever look on the roof of the house that day?

A. Which house?

Q. Of house four?

A. No, sir.

Q. This will be my last question. Do you remember talking to NCIS in March?

A. I remember talking to him in March, yes.

Q. Do you remember reporting that some of the wounds that you saw were torso shots?

A. Yes.

Q. How many torso shots did you see? Most torso shots are not head shots; correct?

A. All together in house four?

Q. Yes.

A. I don't remember. When they interviewed me it was pretty fresh in my mind and they were asking me about, you know, where did you see a bullet hole or where did you think that you saw one. And I told them, I said, I remember one guy was definitely shot in the head. And I remember another guy that looked like he had been shoti n the torso, and then another guy. And then another one that looked to me like he was shot in the head also. I think two bodies were torso shots.

Q. Two bodies were torso shots?

A. Yeah, I think I remember that.

CC[Mr. Culp]: Prosecution Exhibit 61, sir, can I see that? May I hand it to the witness?

IO: You may. So you are going back on your promise of one last question?

CC[Mr. Culp]: This is the last question, sir.

IO: Okay.

Questions by Mr. Culp continued:

Q. I want you to take a look at the picture in Prosecution Exhibit 61. I want you to look at the hand. Do you remember seeing that wound on this individual when you looked at him?

A. I don't remember focussing on the hand. I was pretty much focussed in on his face.

CC[Mr. Culp]: No further questions for him, sir.

IO: Staff sergeant, I have a few questions for you and they are not in any particular sequence. I'm trying to clarify some things.

WIT[SSgt Laughner]: Yes, sir.

IO: And I'm going to give the government counsel the opportunity to ask you some more questions. So we are not quite done with you yet.

WIT[SSgt Laughner]: Roger that, sir.

EXAMINATION BY THE INVESTIGATING OFFICER

Questions by the investigating officer:

Q. Can you just circle on there, where is that trigger home that you are talking about?

A. The trigger home is actually not on this imagery, sir. That home was being built. I can draw it in there for you?

Q. Draw it where it would have been.

A. It was right adjacent to the A home.

Q. Okay. So it was closer to the A home than it is to home number four?

A. Yes, sir. I will put a "T" in there.

Q. Now this doesn't have a scale on this photograph. But approximately, do you know the distances? I mean what an inch is for distance. Is this 100 yards or200 yards?

A. From the IED site?

Q. Right. How far is it from the IED site?

A. House A and the trigger house?

Q. The trigger home with your estimate?

A. Line of sight, probably about, maybe 50 meters, maybe a little bit less.

Q. So if that is 50 meters would you agree then that is a little bit more than 50 meters, closer to 100 meters what you would call the trigger home to house four?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You have to bear with me. I have to find in my notes the questions. You "used" the term "military age male." What is a military age male? How young and how old?

A. Typically the youngest we would go from would be about13 to roughly maybe late 40s, early 50s.

Q. You described when you went to house number four that there was a woman cleaning the house. Specifically, what was she doing in cleaning?

A. To me it looked like she -- when I walked in there she had -- I want to say she had either a rag or a broom. I can't remember what. But she had something to clean with in her hands and to me it looked like she had already started cleaning up the house when I got there.

Q. And she was cleaning up what? Was she cleaning up dirt, glass, blood?

A. I don't remember what she was cleaning.

Q. You said you took IDs off of the individuals that were in house number four. You don't remember which person had the ID on them --

A. Correct.

Q. -- did you ever identify any of those four people as being a traffic officer in the Haditha area?

A. No.

Q. Would you have the ability to identify those persons if they were traffic officers?

A. No. The only way that I would have been able to identify is whether or not we had reporting on them if they were involved in insurgent activities.

Q. So in order for you to identify someone, they had to previously been identified as an insurgent?

A. Right.

Q. Is that how they got in the database?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. So you weren't working with local law enforcement orIraqi Army?

A. There was no Iraqi law enforcement in Haditha at that time. And as far as I knew, all of the Iraqi Army was coming from different areas.

Q. And did you have any -- did they have -- who was the council authority in Iraq for the Sheikh in Haditha?

A. They had a city council and they had an individual thatcalled himself the mayor and other individuals that met with the civil affairs group.

Q. Did you ever inquire with them if they could identify who these people were and what they did?

A. [No verbal response].

Q. Is there a reason why you didn't do that?

A. I never had too much dealing with the individuals that were part of the city council. That was the reason why the names that I was able to translate I had just written down on the paper for Major Hyatt, who was the CAG officer.

Q. So he is the person that would be doing more of the investigative work and identifying people?

A. He would be working more of the city council if they knew who anybody was or what they actually did.

Q. Now was that routinely done as part of your Human Exploitation Team to try to gather information in that area?

A. I would have tried to find that out from later, but I wouldn't have went through CAG. I would have just went and tried to interview individuals on my own.

Q. Okay. Can you approximate how much time had left between when the Marines had engaged the people in house number four and when you had arrived? We tried to do that a little bit here through the cross but I'm trying -- what was your sense of how recent that was?

A. My sense of time at that time it had probably been awhile.

Q. By that you mean a matter of an hour?

A. A matter of probably more than two hours.

Q. What was the SOP that your unit was under when they found AK-47s on suspected insurgents that had been killed?

A. If they found them on somebody they suspected to be an insurgent, they would bring it back with them and it would be marked and stored in the firm base.

Q. Why would the AK-47s that were found, you testified they were given to EOD? Why were they given to EOD instead of brought back?

A. From my understanding, EOD just took them with them. They were all handed over there to them.

Q. When you say "EOD," Explosive Ordnance --

A. -- Disposal team, yes, sir.

Q. Were they part of your battalion or were they a separate entity?

A. They were an attachment like we were as far as I knew.

Q. So since EOD took them would there be SOP that they would bring them back and they would be cataloged?

A. As far as I know, if any of the squads or any of the platoons or anybody brought them back, they would be brought back to the firm base and logged in. If EOD took them, they usually would take them for just disposal. That was why we kept them at the firm base or whenever we got large enough, EOD would come and pick them up and dispose of them.

Q. Was EOD called in because there was an IED that exploded?

A. From my understanding, EOD was called in for that and somebody told me that they thought the white car might have been a VBIED, vehicle borne improvised explosive device.

Q. Who in 19 November was in charge of the EOD section from your battalion?

A. I do not know. They were based out of the dam and they would come out when they were called.

Q. Now how far is Haditha from the Jordan border?

A. Quite a ways.

Q. Would it be abnormal to have someone from Jordan visiting someone in Haditha?

A. It wouldn't be abnormal. It wouldn't be that common. Most everybody that I talked to was trying to get to Jordan to get out of Iraq.

Q. You said that in house number A there was several individuals that were detained and a female that had the Jordanian passports. Do you remember that testimony?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you didn't interview them right then because you were going to interview them later back at the firm base?

A. Correct.

Q. Did you interview them?

A. I interviewed all of the males. I had to interview the wife's husband and his father rather quickly.

Q. Did the course of these interviews, did they ever identify anyone from house number four?

A. No.

Q. Were you able to find out if anyone from house number four was related to anyone that was in house number A?

A. No. I didn't have a lot of time to interview them.

Q. Were they Jordanians?

A. No.

Q. Now I talked about you went into house number four and you took a photograph of the four bodies that are covered in sheets and you took, initially, pictures of them in sheets; right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you removed all of the sheets?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you removed them all at one time so you uncovered all four bodies?

A. As far as I remember, I just did it individually as I went through.

Q. Okay. Was there a reason why you chose not to cover them up again when you were done?

A. I just wanted to get out of the house?

Q. Were there any indications to you that the bodies had been dragged or moved from the location where they would have been originally shot.

A. I didn't see anything. I didn't see -- to me it looked like they had just been laying where they were that they hadn't been moved. And I thought if anybody moved them, it might have been the female.

Q. So from your viewing of them, did it seem reasonable that these bodies may have fallen where they were shot?

A. Yes, it seemed reasonable, yes, sir.

Q. In this pattern, these four people close together?

A. It seemed reasonable that they all would have been in that room. I was under the understanding -- or my assumption was that the female, she might have been the wife or the sister of one of them and just started to just prepare the bodies for burial.

Q. I guess what I'm asking is people are shot, there is bound to be a certain amount of blood. You didn't see blood streaks on the floor where the body would have obviously pulled from one spot?

A. No, I didn't. The only place that I saw that was there was one guy who was wearing blue pants and a white and blue shirt. It looked like he might have been moved a little bit. There was just like -- because in one of the pictures I took I think you can kind of see it.

Q. Was the room covered in blood splatter?

A. I didn't really look for it. I just saw the bodies. I didn't really -- like I said before, I didn't want to cause too much of a scene with the women already being there. To me, it looked like she had already been through and cleaned it. So I didn't know what happened originally.

Q. How did this woman react to you physically, to your presence?

A. She didn't look happy.

Q. Describe that for me?

A. She just kind of had this look on her face like she was upset. But once -- she understood that I wanted her to leave. She just looked like that and walked out of the house.

Q. You said you had difficulty communicating with her. Was she yelling at you?

A. No, she wasn't yelling at me. I was just trying to talk to he her, and she wasn't understanding what I was trying to say.

Q. Would you describe her as generally calm then?

A. I say she was calm but upset and angry.

Q. I am trying to imagine --

A. Trying to figure out her expression?

Q. I'm trying to imagine if someone had killed my spouse and you came walking in and I thought you did it, I might not greet you in a calm manner. I might want to tell you to get out of my house?

A. She might have tried to tell me that but I didn't understand her. She didn't raise her voice or do anything of that nature.

Q. You said she was angry. She didn't raise her voice and she didn't put up any physical resistance to you coming in the house?

A. Right.

Q. But she appeared to you to be angry and upset?

A. Yes.

Q. But she left and complied?

A. Yes.

Q. And you used some Aristotle reasoning on me. You said "all of the insurgents you found are criminals; all criminals are insurgents." Is that the majority of the insurgents you found were criminals or is it your belief that all criminals in Iraq were insurgents?

A. It was my belief that most insurgents I found were criminals.

Q. So insurgency attracted a criminal element?

A. Yes.

Q. So seeing tattoos or believing someone is a criminal would make them suspicious to you that they may be insurgents?

A. Yes, sir.

IO: I want to take a brief break and then, Major Erickson, I will give you an opportunity to ask some follow-up questions. And, defense, I will allow you to have some follow-up questions. Let's take about five minutes.

The Article 32 investigation recessed at 1124, 11 June 2007.

The Article 32 investigation was called to order at 1133,11 June 2007.

IO: This hearing is called back to order.

Major Erickson, do you have any follow-up questions?

TC[Maj Erickson]: Yes, sir, just, a few.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

Questions by Major Erickson:

Q. Staff sergeant, you are reminded that you are still under oath?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Just to clean up the record, I'm going to give you Investigative Exhibit 82. If you would, with the pen circle house three and four and label them as such, house three and house four. And then I think the IO had you at least draw or circle where the trigger house would have been with a "T"?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Staff Sergeant Laughner, you said during cross examination that when you went through house two you said you saw two different types of brass on the floor?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. One was 5.56 and the other you believe to be 7.62?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Or it was consistent with 7.62?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is there any weapons in the Marine Corps arsenal that fire 7.62 rounds?

A. As far as I know, only the 240 Gulf.

Q. And do you know of anybody at that scene that day that had a 240 Gulf?

A. I don't know. I think the squad may have had one. The only other person I can think of that did have a 240 was Lance Corporal Sharratt because I saw him later on sitting in the turn and he told me that his 240 went down and he had to actually use his pistol?

Q. How did that conversation go?

A. Very quickly because that was when I was going over to find Captain McConnell to let him know what I had found through my site exploitation and request permission to bring the female back.

Q. And also you said there was talk about the white vehicle possibly being a VBIED, vehicle born improvised explosive device. Did you get any confirmation later on, that day or that week, whether or not that one car was, in fact, a VBIED?

A. I didn't get any confirmation back, but when I looked through that car I didn't see anything that made me believe that it was a VBIED.

Q. And you talked a little bit about the CAG ID card, the Civil Affairs Group ID cards. You didn't find any that day?

A. Correct.

TC[Maj Erickson]: Sir, the only thing I would like to do now at this point is introduce Investigative Exhibit 82 into evidence. And I will make sure the defense gets an exact copy.

CC[Mr. Myers]: Thank you. And without objection.

IO: Very good.

TC[Maj Erickson]: That is all the government has, sir.

IO: Lieutenant Colonel Cosgrove, any follow up?

DC[LtCol Cosgrove]: Just a quick question.

RECROSS-EXAMINATION

Questions by Lieutenant Colonel Cosgrove:

Q. Just a quick question. Staff sergeant, you just mentioned the conversation that you had with Lance Corporal Sharratt; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. You had earlier said that you had no conversation with Lance Corporal Sharratt, but now you recall a brief statement?

A. That was the only one. When you asked the question or the other individual, I thought you meant just in general over those days. That was the only time that I ever talked to him that day.

Q. And that brief conversation was something along the lines of his weapon went down, he had to use his 9 mil?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. There is a difference between a 240 Gulf and a SAW; is that right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Squad automatic weapon is essentially a machine gun; is that right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And that fires 5.56?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. So if something went down, if it was a SAW, that would be 5.56; is that right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. So if you refer to a weapon of that going down and he had to use his 9 mil and that weapon that went down was a SAW, that would be 5.56; is that right?

A. Yes, sir, if it was a SAW.

DC[LtCol Cosgrove]: No further questions.

IO: Staff sergeant, do you have any upcoming events or requirements that would make you unavailable for further proceedings if they occurred later this year?

WIT[SSgt Laughner]: No, sir.

IO: So you have no belief that you would be unavailable if you were called back to a proceeding for later this year?

WIT[SSgt Laughner]: No, sir, as far as I know I don't.

IO: I want to ask you not to discuss your testimony with anyone except for the trial counsels, the defense counsels, the accused until this proceeding is over.

WIT[SSgt Laughner]: Right.

IO: Now I know there are several other counsels that probably want to talk to you and you are free to talk to them. I just want you to hold off talking to other people until this proceeding is over and it's going to be over in approximately a week or so. And Major Erickson will let you know when that has happened.

WIT[SSgt Laughner]: Are you talking about particulars to this?

IO: Just about what you testified about here in this courtroom.

WIT[SSgt Laughner]: Okay.

IO: Just about this testimony. If someone wants to talk about this testimony, refer them to Major Erickson and they can coordinate that later; okay?

WIT[SSgt Laughner]: Yes, sir.

IO: Thank you. You may exist the courtroom.

WIT[SSgt Laughner]: Thank you, sir.

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